A RECIPE FOR WAR

Tags:

Interview, NYU, Professor Gennady Estraikh, Historical Education, #A Recipe for War, #Ukraine, #War

August 4, 2022

This is the second part of my interview with Professor Gennady Estraikh.

Me: It’s true that Russian President Vladimir Putin has built a sect around him based on his perverted version of history, but it now appears that he’s trying to gain more followers in Russia. More and more people believe in what he’s saying, or at least say that they believe it, and Russia’s government has taken several initiatives to convince people of Putin’s version of history. For example, Russia’s entire educational system recently underwent a massive overhaul so that students could learn more about the Russian government’s (Putin’s) version of Russian history, and of the origins of the Russo-Ukrainian War. Do you think that the ideas of Putin and his followers will ultimately remain confined to a small sect, or will more and more people in Russia actually start agreeing with these ideas, turning them into something mainstream?

Professor Estraikh: I believe that for many people, for the majority, it’s simply easier to believe in these ideas. It’s easier to accept that this is the reality than to actually think about how to improve it. This was the same in the Soviet period, in which people were always being bombarded with all sorts of ridiculous propaganda. However, there was one important difference: we didn’t have any access to outside information. We had no way of knowing most of what the Soviet government didn’t want us to know. People usually accepted this state of affairs. They would’ve had no problem if the Soviet government suddenly decided to turn the color red into white as long as they could quietly come to work at 9 am and come home at 9 pm for dinner without having to worry about anything. So this phenomenon is more common today, in modern Russia, than that of die-hard believers in Russian propaganda, as most Russians now have access to outside information. However, there are people who really believe what they’re seeing in propaganda. I’ve followed some of them, and unfortunately, I know some of them. I’m surprised to see Lavrov’s transformation, but I’ve never actually met him. People who I once sat with at a table drinking tea and vodka are now writing and saying absolutely ridiculous things. My impression is that these people really believe in the propaganda that they are seeing. However, the majority of Russians are really just trying to survive.

Me: As you’ve said several times, it’s as if Russia has been flipped on its head because so much has changed there. Has this forced you to renegotiate your relationship with Russia?

Professor Estraikh: Not to Russia. Russia is really just a territory. But yes, I’ve had to renegotiate my relationship with many Russian citizens, who aren’t necessarily ethnic Russians. The Invasion also led to a change in my relations with quite a few people in the immigrant community, particularly among those in the United States, Israel, and the UK. In my family, we’re all on the same page. However, I simply stopped communicating with some people, and this is the biggest change that the Invasion has brought for me. Yet it’s even worse for some people I know, who have relatives, even in their immediate family, who now believe in Russian propaganda. And right now, I’m seventy years old. It’s quite possible that, due to the current situation, I’ll never visit Russia again, and this is hard. I love Moscow, and I used to visit Russia annually, and it’s always so nice to be there. In any case, this is what I can tell you.

Me: You’ve talked so much about your own, personal experience with the conflict. Is there any other way that this conflict affected you or those around you?

Professor Estraikh: Even for scholarship, it’s quite a change, because a historian needs access to archives. Many archival materials have been digitized or are available in Western countries. However, the bulk of archival documents that many of my doctoral students need for their documents are still in Russian, Belarussian, and Ukrainian archives. Nowadays, I instruct every one of my doctoral students to think twice about the topics of their dissertations, so that they can perhaps change them to something more doable. As for myself, until February 2022, I was affiliated with the Higher School of Economics in Moscow, and I resigned after the beginning of the so-called “special operation,” because this is a state-run institution. However, many of my friends never resigned because they sympathize with the Russian government’s policies. Ultimately, this is quite a complex of problems that I’ve faced since the start of the invasion.

Mark: It’s a very difficult issue and one that’ll take a long time to fix. On another note, what do you think, in general, is the Jewish community’s response to the conflict, both in Russia and Ukraine and outside those countries?

Professor Estraikh: Over the past few months, thousands of Jews have moved from Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus to Israel or elsewhere. It’s difficult for me to understand the situation of people who have remained in Ukraine, though I have relatives who have remained and still have livelihoods and run businesses there somehow, and the same goes for Russia. Of course, we still have to wait for the war’s end to see how it will truly affect the Jewish communities in Ukraine and Russia. However, it’s clear that the size of these communities will not be what it was before February of this year as many Jews have immigrated elsewhere. Outside these countries, you know, I’m sometimes surprised, especially by some people in the older generation. Some of these people have likened the pogroms of Bogdan Khmelnitsky and the genocides of Bandera to the contemporary situation. When the Invasion began, I was in New York. The next day, I spoke to a neighbor of mine, who came to the United States many decades ago. She’s originally from Kharkiv, and she was still quite in a state because she still had friends and relatives in Kharkiv. Her argument was this: “Look, it’s going to end in a few days. I know Ukrainians. They’re not able to fight. They’re simply not able to fight.” Of course, nowadays her take is different.

Mark: I actually have a question about this. This conflict is incredibly complex, and numerous circumstances make it seem like it will never end, as I discussed in a previous blog post. ( No End in Sight) Do you believe that, despite everything, peace is possible?

Professor Estraikh: Eventually, yes. But when, and how? It’s very difficult to imagine. To get to such a point, we need both sides to agree to stop. Now, it seems that neither side wants to come to this point. And we know that some conflicts can go on for quite a while. I’m afraid that so far, this war looks like this kind of conflict.

Mark: I’ve heard people say this can last for as much as fifteen to twenty years. Do you think this is possible?

Professor Estraikh: I’m not sure about this conflict lasting years and years, because I can’t imagine a country like Ukraine surviving a situation of permanent war, losing lives to absolutely barbaric methods used by the Russian army. Now, no place in Ukraine is safe from Russia. How long can people survive psychologically? I have no idea. On the other hand, Russia is a huge country that’s not being attacked. It’s under sanctions of course, but essential products are still available, and people are deeply indoctrinated with this belief that they have to fight on. In the end, it’s really beyond my understanding.

Mark: Well, I guess only time will tell. That’s all the questions that I have. Thank you for very much doing this interview!

Professor Estraikh: Thank you!